Subutex Question For Someone That Really Really Really Knows! (Page 4) (Top voted first)

Looooong read. I warn you now :) Ok. PLEASE don't explain how it works or what it does. Save yourself the time. I am extremely familiar with how it works and what it does. But I have a question that's been on my mind for many moons, forever actually (10 plus years) and I can't seem to get a straight answer to it no matter how many times I ask it and where I ask it. I am asking it here for the first time. Just always get the usual, familiar rhetoric explaining to me how it works and where it binds and what it does, blah blah blah, but no one ever can explain the "why" behind all this wonderful science! And at the end have one first hand case PROVING what I'm questioning to be true. Ok so follow. So if buprenorphine is stronger than and has a higher affinity than let's say Oxycodone as a real life example, and will kick off that opioid from the receptor, this meaning it "replaces" it and fills it, then WHY bother waiting to take it? Immediately or 24 hours later, either way, it's going to sit in that same receptor and do the exact same job!!! I'm so tired of reading about this precipitated withdrawal crap. Now, tired of reading about it does NOT equate to not believing it. You would be an ***** not to believe it because there are just too many cases of it to be ignored so it's a real thing. I just don't understand WHY it's a real thing? Because I cannot POSSIBLY imagine why having the opiate kicked off the receptor immediately, or having the remains of it kicked off 24 hours later, can produce such drastic night and day results? Heck, I've know addicts that were given Narcan to reverse overdoses who didn't go through such pain as you read about some people trying to come off with Subutex or suboxone too soon and not waiting long enough! 24 stinking hours? Seriously? I mean I just don't understand WHY it would be ANY more painful OR horrible OR agonizing to just take the Subutex at anytime you want whether it's during opiate intake, an hour after Intake, or 24 hours after opiate intake, either way, no matter WHEN it is done, it is going to perform the exact same function. It's going to kick it off and replace anything that's in its way! So why if you took it too soon would you go into agonizing withdrawal? You should NOT be going into ANY withdrawal whatsoever even if you take it immediately, because it immediately fills the receptor and prevents withdrawal. I mean that's the entire purpose of this drug is to prevent withdrawal. That's what it is designed to do. That's what it's made to do. Whether you take it immediately or 24-36 hours later? I mean if it took a couple weeks after you stopped taking opioids to go into withdrawal and then you could use Subutex maybe I could understand why it would matter if you did it immediately but 24 hours? That's absurd to my brain! Now for the proof I was speaking of. After enduring watching my wife going on and off Suboxone a dozen plus times, each and every time having to watch her in agony as she detoxed off Percocets for 24 hours first. (Heavily researched this drug before I tried to put her on it for the first time and had that SAME question THEN 10 years ago) Sitting back and watching her do something that I had ALWAYS considered to be useless, what I ALWAYS considered to be needless and what I ALWAYS considered to be nothing more than a ploy the doctors PURPOSEFULLY do as well as the manufacturer, that is to put the patient into DEEP detox so they can become their NEW PIMP, and heroes and rescuers, I ran across a small psychiatrist in Texas.. Giving up on explaining my theory to him as I had already convinced myself there was no need to detox first, was only being done to hook the patients on a very expensive product, the psychiatrist started laughing when I asked him about the usual 24 hour detox. He became my white knight in shining armor when he said "no that's ridiculous, Suboxone will immediately replace the opiates and there's no advantage one way or the other to doing a detox first" Smiling from ear to ear but refraining from telling him I have always thought that, for the first time after dozens of times I gave it to my wife WITHOUT waiting and guess what? Yep that's right, she immediately responded, felt great, and took up right where she left off after just doing a couple Percocets a couple hours before, thus proving that she NEVER needed to do that 24 hours first as I have always thought. But my question remains, I have seen far too many documented stories of precipitated withdrawal as well as read tons of agonizing stories that were NOT precipitated but just more or less people who went through living hell by doing it too soon... when there's absolutely no medical or scientific reason why they should have??? What gives???

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So, it's actually 8 hours after taking something like a pain pill, but it's supposed 2 be at least 24 hours after taking another opioid. After the allotted amount of hours, the level of the drug isn't as high & has already basically left the receptors in your brain. The drug may be in your system for a week, but it leaves the receptors after a certain amount of time, insert cravings, not withdrawal, but cravings. That's when your brain is telling u "Hey. I have no more happy stuff in here! Gimme more!" So if u don't wait those hours, there is a possibility u can go into DT's bc the naloxone is pushing everything out of your system at once & making way 4 the buprenorphine 2 enter. I can take it as soon as I've taken something else & be fine, but I've watched people take it too soon & go into SEVERE automatic DT's. They also have to give whatever drug time to get into your system, attach itself to the receptors & then start 2 leave. They have an intense detox system that gets u clean in just 3 days. They hook u up 2 an IV of 100% naloxone & it just literally pushes all the drugs put of your system, so a 2 week detox happens in matter of hours & apparently it is f***ing painful. But that is the why. The drugs leave your receptors within hours of taking it & if Suboxone is used before it has had time 2 completely vacate the premises, then u have a forced eviction

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Re: kasiyama (# 3)

I appreciate your reply, but this is the wrong thread to post it. Doesn't have ANY relevance whatsoever to the question being asked and singing the attributes of it belongs on a general thread about Subutex where it would be more appreciated.

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The person with the opioid dependency will respond the way their system uniquely responds. Their metabolism of say "oxycodone" may well be faster or slower than another persons. So, genetic makeup of an individual will have an effect on their response when buprenorphine is induced. Oxycodone will occupy 100% of the opioid receptors. Buprenorphine will occupy between 70- 90 % of the receptors. An analogy could be you are driving a car at 100 MPH and you suddenly slow the car to 75 MPH. So no the response is not horrible but is noticeable. It also has to do with how many times a given person has gone through withdrawal and what dosage of opiates a person has been taking. If it is someones first time and they are a heavy user of say Methadone at 180 mg daily for 4 yrs, they are going to have a nasty, nasty withdrawal. If it is someone that has been on 60 mg of Hydrocodone for 6 months, the withdrawal is going to be less severe. So if you look at this in the context that patient information is generally given to advise people of worse case scenarios. I always advise patients that the longer they have been off, the less likely that any withdrawal will occur. You do make a very good & valid point. Everyone is going to be a little bit different in their experience. Hope this helps!

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Buenos Dias "Master Plumber" ref post Fri Dec 8 2017 Conversation Starter

I will be very blunt and brief. I'm a retired airline employee, and, in my past I took "Temgesic" which was a low dose pack of pills of Buprenorphrine, I bought OTC in Bangkok Thailand, in year 2004, and also in Puerto Vallarta Mexico in 1998.

Both occasions I used the two mg (2 mg) sublingually, for lower back pain and for Plantars Facia. Results: It was very effective in stopping all of my pain, BUT the side effects, that began by no longer max than day 3 was a DX of a Spactic Colon that was even MORE painful. I had severe pathological constipation, as a direct result of taking Buprenorphine! By day two, or day three, I would get in the fetal position in my hotel room laying on the carpeted floor in intense pain from the pressure from what felt like a very bloated colon and a inability to pass any stool! I was then age 52 and later age 55 when I had this happen!

I would not take any buprenorphine, in the high doses it is offered in the USA for any level of pain with higher dose Subutex or Suboxone!

This is not addressing your question but, I have discovered I have a serious immediate allergy to hydromorphone (Diluadid 1 mg) from passing a kidney stone only 2 yrs ago in ER, Again Morphine Sulfate, or Dilaudid 1 mg IV stopped by intense pain in ER and I was released from ER after being observed for about 5 hours. The next day, I (again) was at my home and I was in the fetal position, for almost 7 hours, in pain due to another spastic colon and I eventually passed
stool with the help of a OTC enema and lots of water, and Senokot laxative!!

This last ER event occurred in March of 2015 @ age 65.

I have taken USA Percocet 5 mg with 325mg of APAP 1/2 tab twice a day from the year 2006 until the year 2010, with no side effects, never a spastic colon, nor any constipation, and I took the Percocet likely 10 days at a time with a 5 day break then another 10 days for a five year run!! I also am allergic to codeine and hydrocodone especially, and that Vicodin obtained in Germany caused me more Spastic Colon and severe IBS issues!!!

The only narcotic for bona fide pain such as described above is either oxycodone 20 mg for a heat stroke in the year 2011, Santa Fe NM, and, I got no side effects but total relief from intense pain!!

The only pain med I can use without a spastic colon most unfortunately has been phased out in many countries of the world in tablet form that is called the pain med Pentazocine HCI 50 mg tablets I used to get, in the CZ Republic, or in Belgium, as "Fortral" and as "Sosegon" with my trips to Spain, and in Canada as "Talwin" PX as Pentozocine Without any Naloxone, like has been combined in the tablets of USA 50 mg Talwin since the year 1983. I am so angry that drug got abused, in the 1970's in the USA, and worldwide, as it was as EFFECTIVE for intense pain for me, since I was in my late 20's until my late 50's BUT USA Talwin NX makes me very, very sick and is ineffective. It is very very difficult to now obtain Pentazocine hydrochloride tablets worldwide, now, in the past 6 yrs!

Hasta Manana!

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Re: MrB1982 (# 10)

Okay, listen to me, I know what the f*** I'm talking about! Subutex contains zero naloxone!!! Naloxone is what will get you sicker than death itself. Suboxone if taken after u took an opiate will make u feel not too bad. If u take Suboxone then take a opiate like roxycodone you wish u were dead! If u took a Subutex after a oxycodone you will feel fine! No naloxone, No bad withdrawal that's why many doctors don't prescribe it unless u r pregnant and or u r very sensitive to naloxone. Back in the day talking (T's) and blues a type of speed pill were the best thing that was around. They put naloxone in the talwin so u couldn't abuse it too bad. So, listen to me, take Subutex not Suboxone and without naloxone and u will have zero problem's with getting sick. It will however prolong your drug addiction and defeat the purpose of making recovery a realistic goal. I'm 44 yrs old, I've been taking meds for 25 years and have a college degree as a P.A. physician assistant and I know more than most doctors know. Take it or leave it but in the end you will wish u listened. Take an enema at minimum once a week to pass the rock hard s*** in your colon! Your friendly doctor.

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Re: Addxn Doc (# 31)

No offense but I don’t have anything backwards, I explained it exactly as it was explained. And unfortunately doc, you just went on to do what I was speaking posters to not do :) All you did was explain to me how it works and really did not address my question whatsoever, as guessing you glanced over my question and didn’t want to read the long version which is what I think happened, but you answer does not apply in any regards to my post.

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QUESTION, WHY? WHATS THE REASON FOR YOUR WORRY? DOES IT REALLY REALLY MATTER? THAT'S LIKE A CHILD ASKING WHY THE SKY IS BLUE! Are you trying to ask a question nobody has asked? If someone answered it, is it going to make a profound change in your life? Why spend hours and hours typing all this crap for “really... nothing”. Point is “DOES IT REALLY MATTER!!!!”

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Too much. Too much words. It's so simple. If you take opiates and u want to switch to Suboxone, easy, look up the C.O.W.S. (clinical opiate withdrawal scale) worksheet. Follow it exactly. To not take suboxone unless you hit the appropriate number on the cows worksheet if you take it too early and your number is too low you will go into precipitated withdrawal which is withdrawal x's 100. Have some Imodium AD(has opiates in it to help ur body and stomach problems, doesn't break thru to the mind barrier), Xanax and or any benzo diazepam, Ambiens or other medicines that will help you sleep. vitamins, water, try to exercise even 4 10 mins a day. That's it you're fixed! Forget all the other ppl that want to hear themselves talk. NO BOOK NEEDED.

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