Seconal And The Correct Uses

Updated

Walgreens in Georgia orders 100 capsules for me every three months. Must be careful with this Rx, however it works better than anything available for insomnia. It is definitely available. Most younger pharmacists have never heard of it and the older pharmacists know it but "haven't had a script in 30 years for Seconal". The new company that purchased rights to produce Seconal (Valliant) has been under fire for hiking the price to sometimes over 4000.00/100 capsules in this EIGHTY year old drug. This is insane. It is used in Oregon and California for assisted suicide and apparently works very well. Regardless, for an insomniac, nothing works better than carefully used Seconal. It has been vilified to the point physicians are scared to prescribe. So silly.

18 Replies

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1

One should be careful with any prescription medication, they all have the potential to be dangerous, if use improperly, according to the NIH.

Seconal isn't commonly used, anymore, because it has now been replaced with newer and safer drugs that are less risky. It has been known to cause paranoid or suicidal ideation, as well as memory impairment.

Is anyone else currently taking this medication?

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2

Known to cause paranoia and suicidal ideation? If so, only in extreme cases of abuse and in the subsequent withdrawal period. No different than the new, "better" AKA watered down replacements. Sorry for rant, I'm just fed up with doctors (worse yet s***ty PA's) practicing medicine from a "Well, no risk on my part", attitude opposed to effective and proven better treatment options. Worse yet the unwillingness to prescribe narcotic medication temporarily (2-4 weeks max) for patients with legitimate pain. Ridiculous.

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3

hi Mike, I have chronic and severe insomnia. I was wondering if you could help me in finding a way to get seconal as I feel it help me get some much needed sleep.

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4

Amy,
I am sorry for the delay. I just read your posting. Believe me, Seconal is old school and as I stated above it is definitely still available. The new company, Vallient, which produces the drug charges 4000.00 per 100 capsules. My physician is smart and very respected. I had tried other Benzo type meds, hypnosis, herbal etc. You can build a tolerance to this med, so care needs to be taken (as with any drug)......there therapeutic dose is very close to the lethal dose. Walgreens has access to the med.

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5

Yes, I do, read above posting. Agreed about it being strong. One must be careful with anything injested. Even aspirin or table sugar can be dangerous. This medication does have potential for abuse. The other meds mentioned for sleep, have some very serious side effects and also carry with them the addictive and overdose potential.

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6

Hey Mike, I have gone down a similar route down the insomniac trail including: several top tier benzodiazepines, sleep hygiene, and exercise routines, etc. Seconal, I know without a doubt, would be the best sleep medicine for me. Temazepam and triazolam put a dent into my insomnia, but I am fed up and would like a doctor to prescribe Seconal, giving it's effectiveness. With Seconal being a schedule II medication, I know a physician would be hesitant to prescribe. So my question, would you recommend I see a primary care doctor, neurologist, or a psychiatrist? I'm not intimidated straight out asking for it, along with my history of insomnia, but I fear this would seen as drug seeking, which I am seeking, for legitimate reasons. Any suggestions would be greatly valued, thank you for your time.

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7

Anthony, My primary care physician prescribes Seconal for insomnia for me. The company that purchased the Seconal patent is a pharmaceutical company by the name of Valeant.

They took an 80 + year old drug which used to be about $ 35.00 /100.00 for 100 capsules. To now a price of over $ 4000.00 for 100 capsules (you read that number correctly!). My insurance company does pay for the medication however, I am sure they will try and find some way not to for future orders.

Valeant did this about the time California allowed for assisted suicide. Seconal was the drug of choice. Oregon has allowed for assisted suicide for many years and Seconal was available and readily used for it.

Valeant took the stance that their drug was not intended for assisted suicide and they basically raised the price to the unattainable price for people with terminal diseases. They advised via press release, Seconal is for short term insomnia and several other disorders.

This just happened last year. All of that to say, while you and I would be taking this med for insomnia, Valeant makes it very hard for us to do so. Being Schedule II is difficult enough.

There is no research and development on this 80+ year old drug, this is simply greed. The CEO of Valeant was arrested last year due to his other dealings that were less than savory and those happened to be illegal.

Seconal has a tough history due to the therapeutic dose very often being very close to the lethal dose. It, however is the most effective sleeping medication I have ever used. Another effect with Seconal is the fact that you can build a tolerance to the drug thus needing a larger dose to cause sleep. The overdoses you have read about are most likely from people building a tolerance and then taking more with the lethal dose being that one last capsule.

So again, my primary care physician prescribes the medication for me. I have to go to the office and pick up a hard copy of the Rx. I take it to the Walgreens and the pharmacist reads and verifies the Rx. They order the Seconal and it takes about 2 to 5 days. I then pick it up as with any other Rx.

Level with your primary care physician. The more mature doctors know the med, the younger may not have ever seen or prescribed Seconal. As mentioned in a previous posting, I had tried many of the other sleeping medications and they were ineffective. I simply asked my physician about it and he agreed and wrote the Rx. Getting a pharmacy to order it was like an act of congress.

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8

Thanks bud, I definitely won't get it prescribed due to physicians covering their precious asses jurisdictionally and coincidentally at a lack of sleep and well-being on my part, but F#%*'em, thanks anyway. I'm glad you atleast will have peace of mind. Thanks for the reply and God bless!

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9

UPDATE!: (Unsolved Mysteries theme playing), I actually did get my awesome family physician to prescribe me 200mg of secobarbital a night, for a month, to see how it works for me! My family physician said if it works for me the way it should, he'd be more than willing to prescribe for me for the remainder of his practice. So a couple of things: f*** you uptight incompetent doctors that wouldn't rx me this life saving med that has saved my life. f*** you people who said there is no doctor who would rx me a short acting barbiturate for sleep, and most importantly THANK you Mike for your help. That's my last reply and closing comment on my insomnia saga. Peace.

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10

Mike, do you still get your prescription filled at Walgreen's? The reason I ask is that after trying 20 different pharmacies, independent and chain, CVS, they all have the same response. The pharmacy staff takes my rx, waddles to the back, types on their computer and says, "No, our wholesaler does not carry that, it's out of stock, I can't order that". The Walgreen's staff said their wholesaler was out of stock, but they would try to order it. The manufacturer, Valeant, said it is still being manufactured and is not on back order. I can't get it filled. Any suggestions?

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11

Frank, Walgreens orders 100 capsules for almost 4000.00 which my Blue Cross pays. It takes usually three business days. You are correct, Valiant is the manufacturer. They are the reason this decades old drug went from about 40.00 for 100 capsules to 4000.00 for 100 caps. Walgreens can order this. Be persistent.

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12

Re: Mike (# 11) Expand Referenced Message

Hey Mike, I've been on this life-saving drug for about 4 months, paying out of pocket at Walgreens. It's drying up my finances like crazy so I can receive a good night's rest! I'm also on Blue Cross and Blue Shield, but those bureaucratic pencil ****s have denied 4 appeals to their denial of coverage. The last appeal, the doctor signed an expedited 72hr decision for an external review board to make a decision to rule out Blue Cross's obvious denial of coverage on a financial basis. I compiled medical literature and countered every argument they sent for their reasons of denying it. Those weasels at Blue Cross managed to corruptly deny it being sent out for external review by stating it was a non-formulary drug! I can't wrap my head on how that is even legal to do. I'm about to take this to court before a judge to plead my case. Before I do that though my question is how on earth did you get Blue Cross to cover your rx of Seconal? Many thanks for your help.

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13

Re: Frank (# 10) Expand Referenced Message

According to calendar year 2016, Seconal (sodium secobarbital) in the 100 mg red capsules, is most highly dispensed in three target specific geographic areas by MD's and filled at pharmacies, in these areas of the USA:

Greater Las Vegas, Nevada, Lake Havasu City, Bullhead City, both border the Colorado river at the AZ/CA stateline and, Laughlin, Nevada, across the river from Bullhead City AZ, and region #3 is all of Coastal Oregon from the Calif border to the Washington state border, with some overspill into Portland Oregon. Source from the DEA website. It includes a USA map of the colorized chart of how intense the prescriptions with very wide gap in the USA where Seconal is relatively rarely dispensed and it is amazing to see the difference. Oregon, Nevada, California, and Texas IMHO appeared to get about 50% of the market of all Seconal prescribed in the entire USA.

Also this calendar year, the DEA has new quotas, on many C-I drugs (for clinical psychologists to experiment with on an extremely limited basis, not for consumers or pharmacies, but, a 20% reduction across the board C-II quota reduction on what
appears to be any kind of a USA Schedule II ethical medications. For Secobarbital, the 2018 quota, set by DEA documentation, is, manufacturer limits of 161,682 G which one "G" is 1,000 mg per "G" thus, 161, 682 Grams would be (source REDBOOK "Pharmacy's Fundamental Reference" 114th edition, published for over one hundred years+ (yes) by now Thomson Reuters in a joint venture with PDR Network, LLC, of Montvale New Jersey 07645 USA. This book, now only available in digital version only by prepaid prescription, lists over 160,000 prescription ethical drugs, and over the counter drugs, medical devices, and accessories, with NDC numbers and AWP (average wholesale prices) my source for info came from pg 45 and on page 721. NDC number was, 42998-0679-01 for one bottle of one hundred 100 mg Seconal capsules.

Thus 2018 production quota for Seconal is 161,682 grams, which equals this amount in milligrams, 161,682,00 milligrams, and the mfg/ mfg's for at least the past 22 to more like the past 32 years only markets the Seconal red capsules in 100 mg dose size only. One way in theory, is for practical reasons, is to divide say one prescription of #90 Seconal x 100 mg take one at bedtime with water, on the paper prescription, Must be hand delivered to the pharmacist per DEA law to the pharmacy might be like, that would equate to a limit of 17,965 individual scripts if EVERYONE SINGLE SCRIPT WRITTEN IN USA FOR FOR EXACTLY 90 capsules (very unlikely).....or another example is if every C-II prescription for Seconal 100 mg was written for 60 x 100 mg of Seconal, capsules, that would equate to a higher number of written "no refill" prescripton Seconal scripts such as, 26,947 scripts, before the DEA quota would halt the manufacture of any more Secobarbital sodium made in the USA until January 1 of 2019, (and allegedly the quota is adjusted year to year by our lovely DEA and Wash DC politicians)!

For example how this quota can be so powerful, it affects any Schedule II med in the USA, such as, Oxycodone has a 2018 limit of 95,724,000 grams, whereas another C-II ethical pharmaceutical, such as the former CIII, drug Doriden a sedative from around 1964 until 1972, that was before the BNDD was formed in 1968, but enacted into law in 1970, which became in 1973 the DEA, Fast Acting Barbs like Seconal, were rescheduled from a "prescription only med to a Controlled Substance C-II med in the early 1970's, until the here and now, but, non barb Glutethimide (Ciba Giegy Doriden) later USV pharma, finally William H Rorer, made
Doriden in 500 mg capsules or tablets from 1989 until 1993, because the DEA re-scheduled Doriden in November of 1991 to a tighter class C-II, and new Rorer owner, Rhone Poulenc Rorer stopped production of "Doriden due to a radical drop in demand, since going to C-II status, making refills impossible.

Our friendly DEA protecting the USA citizen, with now their "mandatory quotas" has Glutethimide production set at a national limit of just 2 grams which is only 2,000 milligrams or that is 4 x 500 mg size Doriden pills thus effectively this makes it for all practical purposes a former sedative that is banned for practical purposes for any generic USA mfg from ever "re-releasing this old sedative back into production" now extinct "worldwide since January of 2007. (Egis Pharma of Hungary and Terapia Pharma of Romania made the very last Glutethimide, in the 43 countries of the modern industrialized world. Source Martindale, The Complete Pharmacopoeia, published by Pharmaceutical Press in London UK since the year 1883 yes over one hundred thirty five years !! it contains a two volume set of, a weight of 6 kilos, of 4,596 pages for 38 th edition published in the year 2014.

Martindale only publishes ethical pharmaceuticals by proprietary protection trade names (meaning no generics) only brand name ethical pharmaceuticals. 6,000 monographs in 49 chapters with 175,000 drug entries, from approximately 20,000 manufacturers! Pharm Press is the publishing division of the Royal Pharmaceutical Society of Great Britain.

In the year 1995, (source PDR Generics, ISBN 1-56363-118-0) on page 2483, Seconal 100 mg AWP (Average Wholesale Price) was only $0.22 cents each or US cost of $20.08 for one bottle of 100 Seconal Pulvules by original patent founder Eli Lilly a DEA schedule II. By the year 2010, after Eli Lilly sold patent to Ranbaxy, who had "squabbles with the USA FDA and USA DEA, the patent was awarded to Marathon about 10+ years ago. Marathon may "like is so very common in USA" may easily have another ethical pharmaceutical firm actually manufacture, the Seco barbital capsules, called "farming out" or subcontracting out by a license, to FDA and DEA compliant regulations, by a 3rd party, such as, "Valeant Pharmaceuticals International, of Aliso Viejo, California 92656. With IMHO the "merger madness" who knows the changes often come so fast it can come in less than in one single production year, since especially in this past decade of so many mergers and, by legal 3rd party ethical manufacturers, still based inside the USA, that is one of the reasons, the PDR and the REDBOOK have gone digital instead in traditional book forms. Redbook lists 160,000 ethical pharmaceuticals including all controlled substances from C-II to C-V. and the seventeen FDA Orange Book ratings..+all non DEA prescription drugs by brand and by generic mfg.

Secobarbital is legally made in now only three countries in the modern industrialized world, that is:

1. USA
2. United Kingdom (an orphan drug not likely on the NHS)
3. Japan, but marketed not as Seconal but as "Ional"

Secobarbital is offered as a combination med with 50% of contents containing amobarbital sodium, marketed in USA in 100 mg capsules and in United Kingdom in 100 mg capsules both countries use market name of "Tuinal". In the UK it used to be made by mfg Flynn Pharma but may be made by Flynn Pharm by a 3rd party ethical pharmaceutical entity.

In the USA the price AWP has risen from average wholesale price of 22 cents in 1995 to by 2010 the price per 100 capsule was US $4.91 each per capsule, or US 490.50 AWP for a minimum order of 100 caps per pharmacy mfg bottle!

That is a 22 fold increase in a very old barbiturate (source REDBOOK edition 114 and REDBOOK edition 99th edition (for year 1995). The 114th edition is for the calendar year 2010. Thus sixty Seconal might run from a minimum of US about US $300.00 for sixty 100 mg capsules, and good luck if it is on ones insurance formulary, or, Part D of USA Medicare, as IDK. I rarely, rarely get a Name brand ethical pharmaceutical drug, that does not have a generic equivalent, approved, if I do, the deductable, if a brand name is partly covered, it is at best only about 50% of the AWP, if that !!! Plus the MD visit, more $$$ + in my case premium medigap insurance (optional) costs me still about US one hundred dollars per month with an extremely restricted formulary (in about 4 tier levels).

Example my Viagra costs me in year 2014 US $11.00 per pill, name brand by Pfizer, but, not on insurance formulary at any tier level but my USA Ambien in generic form a hypnotic known as Zolpidem tartrate costs me only with insurance the generic is only .07 or seven cents per 10 mg pill! Thus 30 ten mg of generic Ambien (aka Stillnox) as Zolpidem generic, only costs me US $2.20 for 30 ten mg peach color caplets (small "bars"). I used to get brand name Ambien in early year 2007 and it again was brand name only by Sanofi and 30 pills x 10 mg costs me cash in fist US $180.00 per month that is, US $6.00 per sleeping pill!! Thank god my insurance has been reduced from in years 2011, 2012, 2013 US almost $600.00 per month, but when I retired, at age 65 my Medicare kicked in and, Medicare insurance is about $120.00 per month, taken out of my social security benefit monthly check."part D".

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14

Re: Ridgerunner007 (# 13) Expand Referenced Message

Mission accomplished buddy, under 100$ as of Feb 2018

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15

Frank (# 14)l

Frank, not clear. Valiant reduced the price of Seconal from 4000.00 to 100.00?

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16

Re: Mike (# 15) Expand Referenced Message

Well I actually don’t know if it was Valeant that was partly responsible for price reduction or my insurance, but here is how it went down. Insurance covered it and my co pay was 600$ for 60 Seconal pills in January which was kinda ridiculous. Then my last fill in February had a co pay of just 89$, which I’m grateful for but don’t know why it was so drastically reduced. So, just guessing here, either the Valeant company reduced their wholesale price for 2018 or insurance could tell I wasn’t bluffing and really needed it and thus paid the lions share.

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17

SOS,

Mike, I’ve been getting 60 Seconal 100mg capsules a month for about a year from Walgreens, which they have been ordering specifically for me. A month ago, Walgreen's supplier (Amerisourcebergen) ran out and I was told something about their supplier won’t restock the next batch yet because it will expire in either September or December.

So, the supplier (Amerisourcebergen) will restock in December, another 3 months without sleep! Literally, all other pharmacies say the same horse s*** about Seconal either being out of stock, unable to order, or no longer produced (chain and independent pharmacies). Yet, when I talk to Seconal's company Bausch Health Companies Inc. (Strictly a name change from Valeant) they insist that it is still being manufactured. Now, the question: Are you still able to fill your prescription of Seconal at Walgreens? Please help me here buddy!

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18

Hello "Mike" and "Frank" let me introduce myself....I am Ridgerunner007....and the general public.......as well...just go to this website called fiercepharma to see how the USA Pharmaceutical industry are "in my interpretation" are using one of the largest SCAMS in the past 6 to 8 years!!! I do not like being ripped off!!! Who likes being ripped off??? Hint... just look at the history of Teva, or example........lawsuits by the dozens from so many attorney generals of USA states....Price fixing... Poor quality control.....etc, etc.

Con games umm......source "Hustlers and Con Men" writer Jay Robert Nash. Subtitle "A Anecdotal History of the Confidence Man & His Games" (M Evans & Co 1976 NYNY USA ISBN 0-87131-188-7).

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